Saturday, August 11, 2007

Gay Nigerians to be stoned to death..

Here is the story. Even more disturbing than the story are some of the comments at the bottom. I'll never understand how Christians can defend their belief in the death penalty in the context of their faith. That said, how many Christians know their ten commandments?

29 comments:

Kiky 9:39 am  

Yes, I'm totally agree with you jeremy !

Akin 10:35 am  

That is what struck me too, the comments rather than the news story, my conclusion is whilst society should be able to tolerate homosexuals, it must not tolerate bigots or fundamentalists.

KK,  12:59 pm  

I just wish you wouldn't use such sweeping statements about Christians. Nigerian Christians are not representative of the whole! That doesn't excuse what is happening in Nigeria; I am Christian and I find it repulsive.

agboola,  1:52 pm  

Jeremy, that's an unfair thing to say about Christians. Hasty generalisations are as destructive as ignorance. You really should know better. Funny that you had nothing to say about the Sharia law that imposes such a repugnant penalty. I find that many people take solace in bashing Christians because they simply fear the wrath that will come to them should they say anything wrong about Islam. Reading this post of yours conveys that impression. I am repulsed by the comments AND the story itself. Be courageous and "condemn" in its true context.

Very few Christians will make such ridiculous comments. I daresay to Akin, "You are a Christian and I know you would never say such crass".

Fred 2:42 pm  

Sweeping, insulting oversimplification is one of Jeremy's stock in trade, as he jauntily violates every philosophical tenet in his fox hunts of Things He Doesn't Like, something I've always said is strange for a PhD in Philosophy.

That's right, Jeremy, you'll never understand so why bother. I'll just repay you in the only currency you accept: derisive, dismissive put-downs.

cecilia,  3:40 pm  

Jeremy, I bet you wrote this half-asleep or in a delusioned state. It is pitiful to make such a general statement about Christians in a Sharia context. How many Christians do you know who are in favour of the death penalty? A person with such "education" as yourself should be read enough to know the difference between empirical facts and hearsay.

Anonymous,  3:47 pm  

J. dear, much as i usually agree with you, i gotta say u're a coward in this context. Why u know fit talk about the real thing? Abi Sharia stone-killing has become so normal to u that there is no need to condemn it? And how do u know that the so-comment from the person in Malaysia is not a Muslim trying to side-track the issue? OR u dey fear say make dem no come unleash fatwa for your pink head in Maitama?

Jeremy 3:47 pm  

Cecilia: I'll bet that in Nigeria, most Christians are in favour of the death penalty, many of whom are also in favour of this being applied to gays. In my experience, few Christians know all 10 Commandments.

cecilia,  5:16 pm  

Oh well, Jeremy. Now, we know how ill-informed about Nigerians you are. Well, at least as it concerns Nigerian Christians. I totally dispute your statement that most Christians in Nigeria are in favour of the death penalty. We can argue back and forth until we get the statistics in.

As for the Ten Commandments, I also contest your statement. If Christians don't know anything, they know at least one thing: "THOU SHALT NOT KILL". Whether they practise it is another story. Knowledge and actions are two very different concepts (and I concede that in the context of many Christians in Nigeria).

I doubt the veracity (even in your own sober mind) of your generalisations.

Jeremy 5:42 pm  

Au contraire Cecilia, I have found many Christian Nigerians to be strongly in favour of the death penalty, just as I have found many of the same group to often be quite shaky in recalling all ten commandments.

Of course, like your counter arguments, this is based on limited anecdotal experience, rather than hard stats. That said, the implication of your claim is that most Christian Nigerians are not in favour of the death penalty. In general terms, I would say you are wrong. In fact, most societies the world over are in general in favour of the death penalty (it has always been the popular choice in the UK for instance). Its close to being a fact about we humans: the retributive instinct to kill those who have killed seems to be wired into our dna, sadly, commandments or no commandments.

kemi,  6:11 pm  

Oh, Cecilia (...ROLL EYES...), shut up. What do you know about Nigerian Christians? It's the man's blog. He can generalise all he wants.

talk true,  9:58 pm  

Most Nigerian christians have NO QUALMS about the death penalty.

That's the plain truth.

And they have no issue with depriving other people of what people in the west call "human rights."

Anonymous,  10:20 pm  

Cecelia, so, all the passersby lynching thieves at Oshodi busstop must be muslims...LOL!

Chude! 10:53 pm  

just about to say it too, it's the man's blog. Generalisations are the stuff of blogs. If you want hard facts you might want to request a copy of his PhD thesis. Those who come to his blog come for HIS views. Just like he rightly said, his views - just like those who counter them - are based on anecdotal experience. So for most others. Let's try another accusation.

Fahad,  10:30 am  

"Generalisations are the stuff of blogs." Are they? Depends what blogs you read, Chude. And is anecdotal experience really worth much, either way? It doesn't have much of a philosophical base, one that justifiably questions. And before you say it, Chude, yes, I have read the Ph.D thesis...it doesn't have much to do with hard facts. A pity that such an important ethical issue is reduced to pointless face-slapping as this between the anti-naijabloggers and the sycophants such as Kemi and co

Jeremy 10:41 am  

Fahad you seem, from your comment, to have a predilection for what you call 'hard facts' - having not observed any in my thesis. I wonder, do you quite like 'soft facts' as well - but maybe not quite so much?

I'm not sure that I agree that one should be able to justify all the questions one asks, in order to acquire the legitimacy of having what you call a 'philosophical base'. Sometimes, questions just have to be asked to open debate and critical enquiry..

The issue of the second part of my post is undeniably provocative: exploring the relationship Christians might have with the death penalty, on the basis of the First Commandment. I'm not sure there are any more philosophical/ethical issues than this.

Finally, in a land largely devoid of statistics, all we have is the anecdotal with which to form our generalisations/pattern recognitions..

Fahad,  1:41 pm  

You make good and fair points in return. No, I do not like "soft facts". My point about "hard facts" was simply this: "hard facts" is a strange term to use in relation to a Ph.D thesis, especially one about perception. It's a bit of cheap jibe from Chude, a put-down based on "I know more than you." I take your point that in a country where statistics are few that opinions must prevail. Such, however, is a sad state of affairs.

Patrice,  6:23 pm  

I think cecilia is mistaken. The sixth commandment is not though shalt not kill, it is thou shalt not murder. It is the ambiguity of the meaning of murder that probably contributes to the death penalty debate even among the literalist adherents of the Decalogue.

Chude! 6:54 pm  

fahad, maybe i should have qualified that: 'generalisations are the stuff of "successful" blogs'. No one wants to read anything long and tedious on the internet. All we need is depth, wit and a willingness to probe. At least for those who address 'serious' issues.

lest I forget, I came back here (lol) to say: I do not actually agree with Jeremy on Chrsitianity and the death penalty. I am Christian and believe strongly in capital punishment: and I do not see any conflict. The bible, like any quasi-legal document (i.e. meant to be binding on all who subscribe), is to be read as a whole - including its provisos and exceptions. Thou shalt not kill is the general rule, Jeremy, you would do well to read further for the exceptions. Cheers!

catwalq 8:43 pm  

I must say that the majority of christians I have come in contact with are all game for the maximum punishments for the commiting of "sins".

I am more concerned that we are quick to react to "moral issues" but will do nothing about the exploitation of our people at the hands of a useless few. That in my opinions are the real sins.

Fahad,  1:58 am  

'Generalisations are the stuff of 'successful" blogs.' True. Hence. "No one wants to read...", which is a great generalisation and palpably untrue since that is why many take to the internet. I haven't a clue what a "quasi-legal" document is, nor why The Bible should be one. And it isn't so much a question of provisos and exceptions as a question of contradictions. Love thy neighbour as thyself does not constitute stoning gay men to death. The problem with extreme Christian views is that they are based on a mediocre awareness of humanity. I am not surprised to see Christians endorsing Sharia law: intolerance tolerates only intolerance.

Waffarian 2:54 am  

I am sick and tired of archaic nonsense, to kill, maim, stone......HUMAN BEINGS? because of SEX? Please, Nigerians, get over your hypocrisy, we all know say sex dey important pass government work for that country! As for christianity in Nigeria, hissssssssss, abeg, Jeremy, say what you want jare, its far worse than anything you could ever write! FAR WORSE!

Yemisi,  8:42 am  

Waffarian, I couldn't agree with you more. I think it is far worse than Jeremy could possible write. He probably doesn't go on about Sharia law because there is no ambiguity about violence and retaliation for harm done to others. Whereas Christanity is quite explicit about killing - Thou Shall Not Kill. So giving this commandenment, it is surprising that many Christians believe in capital punishment. Look at America one of the most rabidly fundamentalist Christian nation in the Western world is also one of the few nations in that W world which still practices capital punishiment. So if Jeremy goes on about Christianity, perhaps it is because of Christians hypocrisy when it comes to capital punishment.

I agree with Akin, we must never tolerate bigots or fundamentalists (Christanity or Islam) and I am afraid Nigeria is fast denigenerating into an intolerant society.

Yemisi,  8:54 am  

Waffarian, I couldn't agree with you more. I think it is far worse than Jeremy could possible write. He probably doesn't go on about Sharia law because there is no ambiguity about violence and retaliation for harm done to others. Whereas Christanity is quite explicit about killing - Thou Shall Not Kill. So giving this commandenment, it is surprising that many Christians believe in capital punishment. Look at America one of the most rabidly fundamentalist Christian nation in the Western world is also one of the few nations in that W world which still practices capital punishiment. So if Jeremy goes on about Christianity, perhaps it is because of Christians hypocrisy when it comes to capital punishment.

I agree with Akin, we must never tolerate bigots or fundamentalists (Christanity or Islam) and I am afraid Nigeria is fast denigenerating into an intolerant society.

Anonymous,  1:32 pm  

I read the article and saw nothing about christians stoning any gay men. Ten bucks says you're scared of saying anything against sharia and islam. Chicken

SassyCassie

Anonymous,  1:35 pm  

LOL, cowards everywhere. everyone keeping mum about sharia and attacking chritianity.

ella

Jeremy 1:41 pm  

SassyCassy you're missing the point - which was well made by Yemisi above.

There is no ambiguity within Sharia Law about its position on judicial violence - hand chopping, stoning etc.

This contrasts sharply with the edicts of the Ten Commandments, and the peace-making/non-violent life of Jesus.

I have always been against both capital and corporal punishment wherever it is found. Violence breeds violence.

The point of the post, apart from alerting my readers to the potentially barbaric punishment ahead, was to gesture towards hypocrisy amongst some Christians, who can only square their belief in the death penalty with their Christianity by way of blurred, ambiguous arguments..

Ola 2:44 pm  

@chudeetc
To claim it's Jeremy's blog and that he therefore can generealise as he pleases is a limp and redundant point. Might as well say Jeremy is wrong to bitch about Nigerian journalists expressing 'their' opinion or generalising. Countering his opinion is not the same as denying him his right to an opinion! That is such an illogical stretch.
@Kemi, do you then agree Jeremy has the right to edit his blog as he pleases?
@jeremy, maybe support for the death penalty is largely a Nigerian thing and not necessarily a 'Nigerian Christians' thing?

fishcantscream 12:46 pm  

In John 8:7 is described Jesus'
preventing the stoning of a woman,
stopping an execution.

Governmental murder (esecution) and
war violate the teachings of Jesus

If you want to shed the blood
of people or animals please don't
call yourself Christian

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